Its obvious that women have children and nurse them (although child care after infancy has not always been “women’s work”), and I would even argue that in almost all cultures there is an idea of “woman work” and “male work” (seperate spheres or what is expected of women and men). However, what traits have remained the same throughout history?
What “feminine” or “masculine” traits and expectations has always remained the same despite time, area, and culture?
I think military is a good point, but I would argue that there is a strong difference between a standing army, invading army, and defensive army. Women (until recently) were usually absent from standing and invading armies, but women have almost ALWAYS been present in defending armies (for obvious reasons).
I think that infant care (babies) has mostly been women, but child care (from toddler and up) has often been separated depending on the culture. Men in many cultures looked after young boys and women looked after young girls–making the men just as responsible for child care as the women.
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I think that no matter how far we’ve come, what we can wear and where we work, I think that it’ll always be preferred that women remain feminine.
Man the physical force. Woman as the nurturing force. When the two merge, it is the ideaL unit.
Mark and I think you are stubborn but we just love you too much!!!!
edit: ryan it is even imprinted in you. You love the tall strong man that is mark!!!
What we now refer to as “blue-collar work” seems to be pretty consistent, though someone may be able to come up with a counterexample or two. There have been many societies where women have had representation and even domination in the noble classes and governing classes, and our current society shows an admission of women into academics and ‘high-class labor’ (e.g. medicine, business, law, etc.).
But one place where women have never seemed to have solidly broken in or shown a strong interest in breaking in is positions like mining and logging, construction, and the military – I think a complete movement to equality would include a showing of strong interest in equal representation in these fields as well, which doesn’t seem to exist.
I don’t think such an equality is impossible, but it involves cultural barriers that are more difficult to break, because they’re persistent even in the minds of many of the most forward-thinking of women. “Why aren’t there more women heading Fortune 500 companies” is a popular question to ask, but the elephant in the room of “why isn’t there equal representation in the coal mines” has yet to be seriously considered.
You are correct that most societies that we know of, across historical time and space, have had a gendered division of labor.
From my research, there is no trait or characteristic which has universally, or even nearly universally, been attributed to one gender or the other. Child care and military service are probably the closest to what you’re looking for, but even those have not been universally seen as women’s/men’s work (respectively).
So to answer, there are none that have ALWAYS been the same. But military service for men comes close, with child care for women a distant second.
EDIT:
Dark eyes- you seem to have missed the point…
“it’ll always be preferred that women remain feminine”
Sure, but the point of the question is that what is considered feminine has not been consistent.
CAustin
“What we now refer to as “blue-collar work” seems to be pretty consistent”
Not at all! You need to re-do your research. Manual labor has been considered appropriate women’s work in MANY societies in MANY places at MANY times. Usually, it has not been considered appropriate for ELITE women (but usually not for elite men either!). In short, manual labor is much more strongly associated with class than gender labels.
“”Why aren’t there more women heading Fortune 500 companies” is a popular question to ask, but the elephant in the room of “why isn’t there equal representation in the coal mines” has yet to be seriously considered.”
A fair point, but don’t you think the answers to both are pretty similar? I know coal mining is a dangerous and difficult job, but in the areas where it is common, it is also one of the only ways for working class people to make a decent living, making it relatively high status. And are you forgetting that sexual harassment law is largely based on the efforts of women to break into coal mines?!?
There aren’t many gender ‘roles’ that differentiate men and women of today, however, I’d need a PhD in WS to give a very researched response that would also address the ‘victim mentalities’ and ‘entitlement complexes’ that are oh-so-NOT-PC to talk about…
I don’t think that much changes, its only really the methods that change.
What I mean is, take feminism. Its supposed to be about ending these roles but most of it has been about getting the government to protect and provide, examples are child support, maternity leave, profitable divorce, positive discrimination etc.
Well it’s a silly question really as all you need is for one women to have tried her hand as something, say coal mining and it could be argued by yourself for instance that it is not a natural trait for men to do the dangerous jobs in society as one women somewhere in history in some long forgotten culture once picked up a pick and started digging for coal.
Eh! That statement of after weened childcare can you give an example to where men took over that duty please.
@ fere… don’t take me the wrong way I enjoy your questions very much and have real respect for your point of view and even learn something sometimes. But I have a question a little off topic but could you tell me if it was true that besieged armies used to have to eventually send their women and children out into to open at the mercy of their enemies as they took up to many resources for the besieged town or city?
I really don’t know if this was common. I know it happened at Alysia but is this a common thing? Not sure whether that’s spelled right anyway that battle between Caesar and Versingetrix
Due to biology men were warriors, they were by far the bulk of thinkers and inventors, they are heads of the households in intact relationships, those relationships where they are not usually break down.
They are still the providors and even many modern women who do not need a provider because they have a good income of their own cannot fall in love with a man that can not fulfill the provider role in their eyes.
They are still the risktakers, most companies are started by men, gambling is a male dominated field, wallstreet is full of men. Car racing is still male dominated.
Really dirty and heavy work is still male dominated, most of the blue collar work. Women take only interest in activities that involve a degree of physical extertion when it is linked with status, such as police officer, while they have no interest in plumbing or mining.
Gender roles that are imposed by society usually do not last, bicycles were not considered for women, maybe thats because the very first bicycles were difficult to climb on and dangerous to ride, but if a lot of women want to ride bicycles there is nothing to keep them from doing it, because there is no authority to enforce gender roles.
You can only enforce gender roles in a limited way, by keeping the few odd women who are masculine out of car racing, but you can not do it on a large scale, when the bulk of men or women take interest into something, unless you go to extremes like in Afghanistan.
Fereshte no women have not been always present in defending armies. I can recall the Germans used women to defend themselves against the romans by leaving them back in an attempt to disrupt the romans by forcing them to take care of their women, which did not work out, seen as cesar had sent them back to their men. It hardly sounds to me like they were warriors and I do not see warrior women around me in my daily life.
There have been exceptions but I would say all of them, it’s human nature.
Seems to me that women have all of the “roles” right now. For men the ones that have remained persistent: killing bugs and taking out the trash.
one thing that’s never changed is the man apologizing for arguments even when he was in the right. Half the time he’s apologizing for arguments he didn’t even know what they were fighting about.
Women are Nurturers. A bellydance culture adage is : “Men have no mercy because they have no breasts”. Men will never know about giving Life, and feeding it, directly from our own bodies.
Men= Hunters
Women= Gatherers + Mothers
The association of gender specifics has been around since tribal times. I say tribal because rogue animal breeding is a separate culture unto itself. Dominance and packs are two things that we take for granted today. They’re happening all around us every day.
The idea of male and female jobs are merely archetypal. Females of tribes or families are tasked with minding the young, whatever species, as the males who are constantly fighting for the dominant or alpha position go out to bring home the bacon, sometimes literally. Tribes broke down this way because of instinctual, possibly genetic rules regarding survival and the perpetuation of the species. Yes, I just gave away the meaning of life: Breeding. If there are no babies, there’s no biological tomorrow.
To a point, females, who have the ability to give life, are tasked with the duty to raise to a point to participate in the tribe or group. Men go out to compete in various ways. The reason for this is totally obvious: The winners get to breed, which brings us to the meaning of life again. Why is sex such a big deal? It’s awkward, some what disgusting if watched and yet it’s something everyone freaks out about. The drive for it, the reason we all need it is genetic and instinctual.
Women put on a guise to attract the men, usually requiring the removal rather than the addition of something at least in western culture. Men prove that they can bring more, do more and offer better genetic material than any other man for the woman’s children. I hope that has explained a bit about the basic principals of human psychology, and your question about gender roles. Ponder these points and take a look around, it’s pretty easy to see.
Even thousands of years ago, there were already male gatherers and female hunters. Yet, although by 2009 there’s been a lot of apparent progress to gain a better balance, there are many professions that are still regarded as primarily male or female. Not all reasons are negative, though…
More often than not, women are thought to be responsible for spreading the culture: that’s how you find the stereotypical posh wife teaching her kids which forks to use, how to greet, etc.; you also find most sitters, nurses, teachers for early stages, etc. are women; and then there’s the whole arranging trait: women are thought to be more organised, thus favouring related professions and tasks: again, the stereotypical posh wife taking care of financial spreadsheets, most secretaries being women, etc. Females are also responsible for communication: again think of secretaries, interpreters or even the fact that a ‘native language’ is also a ‘mother tongue’. It’s very ironic that even though most of a person’s heritage comes from their mother side, almost all people receive their father’s surname.
The male is linked with physical strength, and with a less sensitive side, which causes both positive and negative pigeonholing: think about a 20-year-old woman being overtly caring and sweet to her boyfriend’s nieces and nephews (kissing them, spending time with them, etc): most people will think ‘she’s great’. Now, if the opposite happens – a 20-y-o man being overtly caring and sweet to his girlfriend’s nieces and nephews (or even his own sometimes), many will instantly think he’s abusing them.
The final ratio’s still unbalanced: compare men vs. female presidents, school headmasters/mistresses, priests vs. nuns.
Women are considered to be the primary caregivers of children in all societies that I am aware of, past and present. Women are generally held responsible for the care of the home, and in most cultures producing the meals. Cloth production was a traditional female occupation for much of hisotry, and in some societies still is.
Men are generally hunters and soldiers in most societies, no society that I know of encourages women to follow these activities other than modern western society.